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The ultimate 4mm RTR Sulzer type 2?

PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 9:24 am
by Dave Millward
Mornin' all,

Fabulous launch weekend for a new player in the 4mm Finescale RTR market. Phil Sutton....former editor of Rail Express and owner of Rail Exclusives has produced what may turn out to be the most accurate RTR 4mm model to date....

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see http://www.sulzertype2.com/

All good wishes to Phil for this and future releases.

Dave

Re: The ultimate 4mm RTR Sulzer type 2?

PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:31 pm
by MartinWales
Indeed Dave! Was Iucky enough to be invited to TarporIey on Saturday and inspect the goods too...

Re: The ultimate 4mm RTR Sulzer type 2?

PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:29 am
by jdfaulkner
Here’s a couple of videos of 24 081 in action
(please excuse the video noise, I still need to learn how to get to grips with how best to shoot video with a DSLR).

https://youtu.be/Vny2UjTE2VQ
https://youtu.be/eg-lQ6-RBaQ

David

Re: The ultimate 4mm RTR Sulzer type 2?

PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:31 am
by Waveydavey
Very nice Dave.

I'd probably want to adjust the CVs a bit to slow the acceleration of what would be a reasonably heavy train for a 24 but it sounds absolutely lovely

Re: The ultimate 4mm RTR Sulzer type 2?

PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:53 pm
by Dave Millward
....my comments exactly Dave....I only recall 24s with heavy trains on full power for long periods at low speed, so seeing one accelerate a heavy coal train in the same way that a type 4 might, burst the bubble a bit. However, I'm told that re-programming them is straightforward.

Dave

Re: The ultimate 4mm RTR Sulzer type 2?

PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:39 am
by Gavin Liddiard
You don't have to adjust the CV's. Function button 5 switches between 'light engine' mode and 'heavy train' mode, adjusting the acceleration and braking to suit.
At Chatham Exhibition in June 2016 we should have more of these to play with, and by then we should also know what all the functions do.

Re: The ultimate 4mm RTR Sulzer type 2?

PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:48 am
by EddieDMU
Perhaps we will need to develop a Driver Competence system... :face:

Re: The ultimate 4mm RTR Sulzer type 2?

PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:30 pm
by iak
EddieDMU wrote:Perhaps we will need to develop a Driver Competence system... :face:


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Re: The ultimate 4mm RTR Sulzer type 2?

PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:48 pm
by Dave Millward
Gavin Liddiard wrote:You don't have to adjust the CV's. Function button 5 switches between 'light engine' mode and 'heavy train' mode, adjusting the acceleration and braking to suit.
At Chatham Exhibition in June 2016 we should have more of these to play with, and by then we should also know what all the functions do.


Hi Gav,
Paul Chetter said that the adjustments could only be made on a P4 test track so I'll look forward to seeing the ability to mode change on the handset.

Dave

Re: The ultimate 4mm RTR Sulzer type 2?

PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:50 pm
by Dave Millward
EddieDMU wrote:Perhaps we will need to develop a Driver Competence system... :face:


...I think that that teeshirt is still lying around somewhere Ed.

Dave

Re: The ultimate 4mm RTR Sulzer type 2?

PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:42 pm
by Richard Oldfield
Hi David,

Waveydavey wrote:I'd probably want to adjust the CVs a bit to slow the acceleration of what would be a reasonably heavy train for a 24 but it sounds absolutely lovely


It's probably worth pointing out that the Mostyn operators were getting access to the production SLW Class 24s at the same time as everyone else (although we had early prototypes on extensive testing over a year ago). We were just having fun playing with the new locomotives and seeing what they could do.

I simply relegated 40.106 from its Trip 29 Point of Ayr Colliery - Rockcliffe Hall power station working and substituted in 24.081 to see what it would make of 27 weighted 21T/24.5T loaded minerals plus a brake van. You saw the result in David's videos.

In real life 24.081 would not have met this challenge - the nearest equivalent I have seen is 25.215 with about 20 x 21T minerals on the same working (in Trefor Thompson's book). The caption mentions 'struggles'. There is a decent fitted head on our formation (Dia. 1/119 and Dia. 1/120) but the gross weight of the train was beyond the Class 24's ability to keep to the trip working timings.

A pair of 24s would be a different thing........... :D

Cheers,
Richard

Re: The ultimate 4mm RTR Sulzer type 2?

PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:33 pm
by Waveydavey
With at tare weight of about 10 tonnes each a rake of 20 fully loaded 21 tonners would be just over 600 tonnes giving a train weight of roughly 700t. 27 would work out at about 900-950 tonnes.

I've no idea what the freight train loads book figure was for a single 24 along the North Wales coast was but I do know that the standard load for a single 37 running air braked class 6 was 1130 tonnes on most routes. This suggests the above train would be pretty much a full train, if indeed not too much weight, for a single 24.

Cheers

David

Re: The ultimate 4mm RTR Sulzer type 2?

PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:52 pm
by Richard Oldfield
Hi David,

Because of the topography the basic load for a Class 24 varied considerably along the North Wales coast. For the Up direction the stretch of line which includes the Point of Ayr colliery to Rockcliffe Hall power station route (shown as LLysfaen to Mold Jcn in the Freight Train Loads Book) a Class 24 had a basic load of 810 tonnes for Class 6(b), 7 and 8 freight trains with B brakeforce. For Class 9 freight trains the basic load for a Class 24 on the Talacre (Point of Ayr) - Rockcliffe Hall section was 600 tonnes with the proviso that this figure could be increased by 14 tonnes for each tonne of additional brake force not provided by the locomotive {up to a maximum of 15 tonnes of additional brake force}. Therefore, get yourself a good fitted head and the tonnage can increase up to 810 tonnes again.

These figures then become further complicated by the concept of the Maximum load (as in table D of the white pages of the Working Manual for Rail staff). This fully-laden coal train qualifies and gives the Class 24 on this train a maximum load of 744 tonnes unfitted and 993 tonnes partially fitted. I had forgotten about this factor when making my earlier posting.

Looking at the 'Mostyn' train

Loco 24.081 = 80 tonnes
Brake Van = 20 tonnes
22 x 21T fully loaded wagons = 660 tonnes
5 x 24.5T fully-loaded wagons = 165 tonnes

All-up weight = 925 tonnes.

I did give this formation a good fitted head so this is, in fact, a feasible train for this route/direction. Equally well, it would have been outside the rules with a lesser or no fitted head. A very useful reminder about the importance of getting a fitted head to a train wherever possible.

At the end of the day your point is well-made. 24.081 would certainly not have galloped away from the Up starter :hmm: :hmm:

Cheers,
Richard

Re: The ultimate 4mm RTR Sulzer type 2?

PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:34 pm
by Dave Millward
Evenin' all,

Varying traction types even within the same classification (type 1,type 2 etc) had different acceleration characteristics esp. with heavy trains. The sound angle may be newish but if seized correctly it will add greatly to the realism of individual classes.

Moving 700 tons with a type 2 on the Tunstead/Northwich circuit demanded a banker out of Tunstead, continuous skill/concentration and thorough route knowledge esp. during Autumn leaf fall. There were sections where you held back until the signals were green because you wouldn't make it through without a clear run and fair wind. If the figures are correct into the 900s for sections of the North Wales coast then one has to assume that it is almost billiard table flat and not really troubled with poor rail conditions. A single type 2 would be spending long periods flat out just to keep the consist of short wheelbase wagons moving and this could only be at low speed. Such a weight, coupled with the binding tendency of short wheelbase wagons on sharp curves would serve to quickly drag the loco to a stand.
I'd be inclined to trust much more in the evidence of the various images of these workings in order to understand their daily loadings better.

Dave

Re: The ultimate 4mm RTR Sulzer type 2?

PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:25 pm
by Dave Millward
Aft'noon all,

A challenge for those into their disc headcode baby Sulzers is to find any two which are identical. Detail differences to consider include: livery, yellow headcode panel, boiler water tank fitted, 2nd compressor/cab front air pipe, numbering style and how many corners they are applied to, sandbox style, OHLE flashes, miniature 2 or 3 piece snowplough fitted, additional bodyside grille fitted, modified underslung tank sizes (SR allocated locos), axlebox style, damage to cab front above coupling hook, BR double arrow logo size, quantity and location, roof blanking plates, exhaust style, additional brackets on the cab front, radiator grille style, boiler compartment grille cover fitted and in what colour, D prefix, blanking plates over bodyside steps, fairings still in place along the bottom of the body etc etc

Here is an example....from a currently unknown photographer....later style numerals in pre TOPS guise on BR blue with 3 piece miniature snowploughs. Try finding even a 2nd image of this loco like this, let alone a sister loco adorned in the same way
24 w.PNG


Dave