Hornby Hawksworth Passenger Brake (BG)

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Hornby Hawksworth Passenger Brake (BG)

Postby Richard Oldfield » Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:34 am

Hi,

Has anyone given these coaches the 'once over' and would like to offer any suggestions for potential improvements?

http://www.hornby.com/shop/rolling-stoc ... st-1956-1/

Cheers,

Richard
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Re: Hornby Hawksworth Passenger Brake (BG)

Postby KevinBays » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:22 am

I looked at these coaches and decided to build the Comet Models kit instead. The detail on the Hornby model is good, but to me things like the rivet detail was to pronounced. In addition I would have had to replace most things like corridor connectors, bogies, buffers and probably the chassis and just used the body shell, so from an economic point of view I think I chose the better option. Having built a few, the only thing I found with the brass kit is because their is no tumblehome to stiffen the sides and it can be like trying to solder an octopus unless you secure everything to a jig. The other awkward bit is fitting the dome ends and roof on together at the same time onto said octopus, but with a bit of practice!!!
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Re: Hornby Hawksworth Passenger Brake (BG)

Postby chrisf » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:52 pm

At least Hornby have got the tumblehome correct, subtle as it is. For 1977 condition you would not need the gangways, which IMHO are horrible, anyway. The Hornby model is flush glazed, difficult to attain with Comet's kit. Why replace the buffers? They have rectangular shanks, round heads and springing. I'm sure that springing solutions are available that would allow the Hornby bogie mouldings to be retained.

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Re: Hornby Hawksworth Passenger Brake (BG)

Postby Rippers » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:57 pm

Hmm - someone thinking along the same lines as myself perhaps. 8-)

Some while ago I reworked a Comet Hawksworth BG (built by Metro) into a mid 70's condition one with the rainstrips removed and end gangways plated over.
parcels3.jpg


Which looked reasonably convincing when finished in faded and weathered rail blue and supprisingly went on to win a few competition awards (Tappa has the finished model so perhaps he could provide a finished shot).

Having aquired a brace of the Hornby ones in Modelzones latest clearout I was thinking of trying the same conversion again with the new model. At first inspection the changes (not all lost the full rainstrip anyway) look just as viable but any thoughts and coments on the viability before I put it under the knife appreciated.
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Re: Hornby Hawksworth Passenger Brake (BG)

Postby iak » Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:32 am

There appears to be some who feel these Hawksworths are pretty damned accurate.
The bogies definatly appear spot on so it a case of a quick swap for am MJT unit and then using the Hornby bogie for the cosmetics as ChrisF states.
I think its very much a case of choose your victim before chopping etc - good piccies seem to be a prerequisite as ever.
Its the taking apart of the b#gg#rs which can be fun I believe - repaints are so much fun :?
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Re: Hornby Hawksworth Passenger Brake (BG)

Postby Tim » Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:53 am

I've got a pair of these (well, a BCK and a BG) and I'm pretty happy with them as they are. The BCK is destined for greater things, of which more anon.....

Disassembly of them is a walk in the park if you're used to cat's cradles (he says smugly). The only let-downs for me are undersized bufferheads and the rather disappointing gangways. I'm wondering what can be done with the former....... As it is, I only really need a couple of the BGs, but an SK/BSK pair might be worth having.

Those minor points aside, they're a cracking model indeed!
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Re: Hornby Hawksworth Passenger Brake (BG)

Postby iak » Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:30 pm

Are the correct size buffer heads out there he asks...
A straight replacement maybe?
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Re: Hornby Hawksworth Passenger Brake (BG)

Postby Tappa » Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:34 pm

As Neil mentioned earlier, I have the finished Comet kit of the Hawksworth and here it is. I don't suppose Hornby will do the version without the gangways.

Image

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Re: Hornby Hawksworth Passenger Brake (BG)

Postby Waveydavey » Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:32 am

When did the Hawksworth BGs lose their gangways?

I ask as when I tickled up a Lima Siphon G I came to the conclusion from the photos I studied that they still had their gangways in 1975. Did the BGs get done before the Siphons?

Cheers

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Re: Hornby Hawksworth Passenger Brake (BG)

Postby Richard Oldfield » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:06 am

Hi Chaps,

Thanks for all the feedback and suggestions. Having bought a couple of Hornby models (though not quite at the advantageous price currently offered by Modelzone :( ), I'm not going to consider the Comet option. Having had a quick look at the model now, my opinion is that it is pretty good. The roof is probably in need of some work to reduce the prominence of the rivet strips and I cant quite make my mind up about the shell vents (are they bulbous enough?).

The sides are very crisp - again the only thing I question is minor - the representation of the hinges seems not quite prominent enough but this may be a 'careful weathering' rather than 'modification' issue. Adding label clips is not hard work.

Most of the work needed will be on the ends:-
- new gangways (at least one example kept its gangways in 1977) or plating over
- correct diameter buffer heads
- add screw-link drawgear
- add vacuum brake and steam pipes
- replace moulded electrical connection with wire

I would hope to keep the bogie sideframe detail and mount it on MJT compensation units (I know, I know, compensation is so yesterday but I'm not going to pay nearly £10 for springing units). I haven't had the opportunity to look in detail at the prototype's underframe but the model looks fine.

Hopefully I can personalise the models by finding prototype images with open windows and maybe some corrosion re-plating.............

Please feel free to add to/amend my list.

Cheers,

Richard

Neil/Jeff - very nice work with the Comet Hawksworth - let's see whether the Hornby version can produce something as good.
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Re: Hornby Hawksworth Passenger Brake (BG)

Postby david bigcheeseplant » Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:28 pm

Hold fire for a few months as a manufacter is making an upgrade kit for the Hornby Harksworths, this includes sprung bogies, gangway connectors with pullman type addapters, sprung buffers with larger heads and brake parts.

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Re: Hornby Hawksworth Passenger Brake (BG)

Postby iak » Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:27 pm

Aha...
Bag out of cat or something similar then 8-)
Wonder who this could be...........................
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Re: Hornby Hawksworth Passenger Brake (BG)

Postby Rippers » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:01 pm

Richard Oldfield wrote:Most of the work needed will be on the ends:-
- new gangways (at least one example kept its gangways in 1977) or plating over
- correct diameter buffer heads
- add screw-link drawgear
- add vacuum brake and steam pipes
- replace moulded electrical connection with wire

Hopefully I can personalise the models by finding prototype images with open windows and maybe some corrosion re-plating.............

Please feel free to add to/amend my list.


Changes to the rainstrips?................ some appear to have kept the full lenght one in the blue era but others seem to have had it removed in favour of short sections over the doors only. I modelled one of the latter.

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Re: Hornby Hawksworth Passenger Brake (BG)

Postby Richard Oldfield » Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:14 am

Rippers wrote:Changes to the rainstrips?................ some appear to have kept the full length one in the blue era but others seem to have had it removed in favour of short sections over the doors only. I modelled one of the latter.

Neil


Hi Neil,

Yep, I forgot about the rainstrips. Since I have two donor vehicles it would be nice to do prototypes with each style of rainstrip and ones with and without gangways. What's left when the full length rainstrip is removed - is it just a seamless transition from side to roof?

Cheers,

Richard
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Re: Hornby Hawksworth Passenger Brake (BG)

Postby mark forrest » Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:14 pm

Richard Oldfield wrote:What's left when the full length rainstrip is removed - is it just a seamless transition from side to roof?


Yes it appears to be:
http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrnpc ... #h257bd839

Cheers for the tip off about the Modelzone bargains, just bagged a couple :P
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Re: Hornby Hawksworth Passenger Brake (BG)

Postby mark forrest » Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:20 pm

Waveydavey wrote:When did the Hawksworth BGs lose their gangways?


Mr Larkin's BR General Parcels Rolling Stock (the Bradford Barton paperback) has a photo of W328 sans gangways in 1975; the caption describes it as a "recent modification".
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Re: Hornby Hawksworth Passenger Brake (BG)

Postby Butoxeter » Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:22 pm

Richard Oldfield wrote:I know, I know, compensation is so yesterday

But if it worked yesterday, why won't it work just as well today? ;)
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Re: Hornby Hawksworth Passenger Brake (BG)

Postby Tim » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:28 pm

Butoxeter wrote:
Richard Oldfield wrote:I know, I know, compensation is so yesterday

But if it worked yesterday, why won't it work just as well today? ;)


Proven design and works a treat! All my DMUs and EMUs use them.

Back on the Hawksworth though... Richard: having had a closer look at my own BG, I'm minded to leave the roof panels as they are, purely because replacing them doesn't really have any realistic benefit, from what I can see. As for the rainstrips, you probably know this already, but the rivet strips under them is worth preserving. I'll be interested to see how you get on with that area too, even though neither of mine will ever need to be removed.

Cheers,
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Re: Hornby Hawksworth Passenger Brake (BG)

Postby Richard Oldfield » Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:20 am

Hi,

Just following up this thread I notice that the Hornby Hawksworth detailing packs from Masokits are now available. Details are here:-

http://www.scalefour.org/masokits/masok ... Page07.pdf

It looks as if you need items 10.10 (cost £7.00) and 10.11 (cost £3.00) per coach. Has anyone here tried them?

Cheers,

Richard
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Re: Hornby Hawksworth Passenger Brake (BG)

Postby Richard Oldfield » Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:52 pm

Hi,

A few images showing the basic process of getting a Hawksworth BG up on its P4 legs.

The basic bodyshell stripped and ready for further work. The underframe is 'as it comes' apart from the removal of the bogies and the removal of the bogie mounting pivot and coupling securing spring location moulding (thus leaving a flat horizontal surface to mount the coach compensation units to). The glazing units (one per vehicle side) also act to secure the underframe to the body and this function needs separating so I can work on an underframe/body assembly without having the glazing in place. This separation is achieved by cutting the locating clips (3 per side) from the glazing strips and gluing them to the inside of the body sides.

Image

A pair of 9ft wheelbase MJT coach compensation units (CCUs) with 14mm coach wheels await their call to action. The flat plate has the male half of a press stud soldered to it. The bogie pivot has the female half of a press stud soldered to it. It is critical to ensure the press stud halves come together without requiring too much force and that the plate will sit fairly horizontal and rotate smoothly.

Image

I use two sets of temporary plastic spacers to calculate how much to adjust the ride height before the permanent spacers are glued to the underfloor.

Image

The body is simply sat on the CCUs with no additional spacing and offered up against a buffer height jig - (this one recently built by Gavin Liddiard is also designed to standardise the fitting of various types of Kadee coupling). The white piece of scrap card has been inserted so that the buffer height comparison is clearly shown. You can see that the vehicle body needs raising by a 'considerable' amount.

Image

1.5mm spacers have now been added at each end. Nearly there but, to my eyes a little bit more would help. It is important to remember, especially with kits, that you cannot assume the floor has an even thickness throughout the vehicle (i.e. you should be prepared to pack by different amounts at each end). Minor differences in the dimensions of the press studs - and how they fit together - are also factors. Finally, you need to remember that lifting the body at one end only will slightly lower the body at the other end and vice-versa.

Image

Too much ?? The impact of adding just 0.25mm more.

Image

More to come (when it's been done..............................)

Cheers,

Richard
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Re: Hornby Hawksworth Passenger Brake (BG)

Postby iak » Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:02 am

Ahhha Dr Liddiard has been cogitating 8-)
Were the piccies any use Richard?
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Re: Hornby Hawksworth Passenger Brake (BG)

Postby Richard Oldfield » Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:19 pm

Hi Iain,

iak wrote:Were the piccies any use Richard?


The pictures were certainly of help = much appreciated.

Cheers,

Richard
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Re: Hornby Hawksworth Passenger Brake (BG)

Postby Richard Oldfield » Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:29 pm

Hi,

A few more images to show progress.

1. A close-up showing the locating lugs mounted to the bodyside.
Image

2. The stripped out underfloor.
Image

3. Spacing pieces added.
Image

4. CCU mounting plate added - at this stage it is simply held in place by liquid poly (having roughened up the brass surface). Note that the radiused part of the moulding has been chamfered - the relationship between this and the wheelsets seemed too tight for me.
Image

5. Bogie added.
Image

6. The coach is now on its feet for the first time. The relationship between the top of the CCU and the bottom of the solebar seems quite tight but the buffers are at the right height. Hmmmmmmm..........
Image

Cheers,

Richard
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Re: Hornby Hawksworth Passenger Brake (BG)

Postby Penrhos1920 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:57 am

Richard,

Are you using the correct wheel types? Or have Hornby got it wrong? The Hornby Hawksworths have 4 hole discs.
Cheers,
Richard
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Re: Hornby Hawksworth Passenger Brake (BG)

Postby Richard Oldfield » Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:46 pm

Hi Richard,

Penrhos1920 wrote:Are you using the correct wheel types? Or have Hornby got it wrong? The Hornby Hawksworths have 4 hole discs.


Your question had me scratching my head. I hadn't noticed the 4-hole disc wheels fitted to the Hornby Hawksworths - all I've done so far is remove the bogies from the bodies and put them to one side.

I dont know whether the Hawksworth BGs were originally fitted with 4-hole disc wheels or, if they were, whether wheelsets of this design would have lasted right through to 1977 (our modelling time period). Looking at all the pictures of these coaches in the 1970s that I have access to, the wheelsets are either unclear or there is no evidence of 4-hole discs - but I only have a few photographs altogether so there may be others.....

Standard coach disc wheels are fitted to my models - to my knowledge no-one makes P4 4-hole disc wheels (but you could etch a disc with the 4 holes if need be and superglue this to the face of the wheel).

If anyone could enlighten me as to the use of 4 hole disc wheels then I would be grateful.

Thanks for raising this possibility - it's completely new to me.

Cheers,

Richard
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