BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby Richard Oldfield » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:16 am

Hi Chris,

The article where Chris Pendlenton describes his method of springing is in MRJ 173 from 2007 - it covers his Summer project of batch-building 21T hoppers.

I slightly modified his method to provide more equal distancing of the pivot points for the springs and can let you have the details when I find them again......

Cheers,

Richard
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby chrisf » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:12 am

Thanks, gents. The word "pitfalls" is disappointing but not unexpected! I shall read on ...

Chris
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby Simon Hargraves » Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:56 pm

iak wrote:Strangely we have some Trout for the fettle as well so stay tuned............. 8-)

And here was me thinking you tickled trout........ :lol:
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby iak » Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:55 am

Hey it might get milled yet Simon :shock:
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby iak » Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:04 am

An initial consultation between myself, Dr Oldfield and CSM Liddiard has shown us that to use Bedford W irons will need the removal of the Hornby ones - which rather defeats the object really.
The Masokits inside bearings are not free running but do work - a last resort maybe?
So it looks like a Pendleton/homebrew solution beckons.
The Bradwell chassis is for the odd one the sensible option maybe; however when one considers we are doing 12 or more of these Brake Vans? It simply doesn't represent sensible value for money. And that is not a dig at Dave B. - far from it. Lang may his lum reek! 8-)
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby Simon Hargraves » Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:19 pm

iak wrote:Hey it might get milled yet Simon :shock:

Crikey :shock:
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby Jim S-W » Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:44 pm

iak wrote:The Masokits inside bearings are not free running but do work - a last resort maybe?


Um - the role of the brakevan was to keep all the couplings taught at all times. Something with a bit more resistance it probably exactly what you need when you think about it.

Cheers

Jm
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby iak » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:14 am

With the length of the rakes on the beastie JIm??? :lol:
Excessive rolling resistance we'd like to avoid as I've already said - wibble :!:
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby Waveydavey » Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:22 pm

Jim S-W wrote:Um - the role of the brakevan was to keep all the couplings taught at all times. Something with a bit more resistance it probably exactly what you need when you think about it.


I don't think it was Jim. We'd still have them if that was their purpose.

Put simply, and without going into great detail, couplings stretch out during acceleration and the buffers compress under braking. My understanding of the original need for brake vans is for there to be some way of braking the rear portion of a divided unfitted train and bringing it to a stand. With everything being fully fitted these days the brakes are automatically applied on both portions of a divided train as the brake pipe continuity is destroyed by the division.

I've never had a divided train at work yet but they do still happen. One of my colleagues had one recently at Burton on Trent.

Cheers

David
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby Jim S-W » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:24 pm

iak wrote:With the length of the rakes on the beastie JIm??? :lol:
Excessive rolling resistance we'd like to avoid as I've already said - wibble :!:


I thought we were talking about one wagon in a train? In which case one wagon with slightly more drag adds the same to a train of 5 wagons or 50. And Mostyn is Snooker table flat so thats not an issue either. Your curves are quite tight but not that tight enough to cause a problem I'd have thought?

Cheers

Jim
Last edited by Jim S-W on Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby Jim S-W » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:26 pm

Waveydavey wrote:
Jim S-W wrote:Um - the role of the brakevan was to keep all the couplings taught at all times. Something with a bit more resistance it probably exactly what you need when you think about it.


I don't think it was Jim. We'd still have them if that was their purpose.

Put simply, and without going into great detail, couplings stretch out during acceleration and the buffers compress under braking. My understanding of the original need for brake vans is for there to be some way of braking the rear portion of a divided unfitted train and bringing it to a stand. With everything being fully fitted these days the brakes are automatically applied on both portions of a divided train as the brake pipe continuity is destroyed by the division.

I've never had a divided train at work yet but they do still happen. One of my colleagues had one recently at Burton on Trent.

Cheers

David


You might be right Dave (probably are!) I am just repeating what an ex guard told me.

Cheers

Jim
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby Davef » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:07 am

Jim S-W wrote:
Waveydavey wrote:
Jim S-W wrote:Um - the role of the brakevan was to keep all the couplings taught at all times. Something with a bit more resistance it probably exactly what you need when you think about it.


I don't think it was Jim. We'd still have them if that was their purpose.

Put simply, and without going into great detail, couplings stretch out during acceleration and the buffers compress under braking. My understanding of the original need for brake vans is for there to be some way of braking the rear portion of a divided unfitted train and bringing it to a stand. With everything being fully fitted these days the brakes are automatically applied on both portions of a divided train as the brake pipe continuity is destroyed by the division.

I've never had a divided train at work yet but they do still happen. One of my colleagues had one recently at Burton on Trent.

Cheers

David


You might be right Dave (probably are!) I am just repeating what an ex guard told me.

Cheers

Jim


I'm thinking that the original quote was correct in so much as keeping the couplings tight, at times, was one of the guards duties. According to my (much) older cousin who was a guard working from Blyth on the goods trains around the Northeast including the Border Counties lines up to the end. He told me stories about some of the steep descents with loaded coal trains where he had to screw the van brake on so hard that the wheels stopped turning.... This was to help the loco crew control the loose coupled trains and to keep most of the couplings tight so that when they reached the bottom and started the climb on the other side the loco could pull away without snatching the whole train. Terry Essery also mentions this in one of his books when he said their regular guard was good at controlling the rear of the train on descents so the driver could, on reaching the bottom of a dip, throw the regulator to the roof for the climb on the other side without fear of breaking the train in two.
My cousin did admit to getting a boxxocking once from a driver because he fell asleep so didn't screw the brake on and they nearly had a run away.... Obviously this duty wasn't needed so much with fully fitted trains and with screw couplings (if tightened properly) but the guard still had to 'watch' the train.
Just my input,

All the best,
Dave Franks,
Much younger than he looks....
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby iak » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:59 am

Jim S-W wrote:
iak wrote:With the length of the rakes on the beastie JIm??? :lol:
Excessive rolling resistance we'd like to avoid as I've already said - wibble :!:


I thought we were talking about one wagon in a train? In which case one wagon with slightly more drag adds the same to a train of 5 wagons or 50. And Mostyn is Snooker table flat so thats not an issue either. Your curves are quite tight but not that tight enough to cause a problem I'd have thought?

Cheers

Jim


Each wagon weighs say 50 grammes.
So a 5 wagon train of two axle wagons will be 250 grammes and 10 axles/10 bearings.
A 50 wagon train of two axle wagons will be 2500 grammes and 100 axles/bearings.
Having spent many years building a good deal of stock, I have learnt that drag on the longer and heavier train is more likely to be an issue simply because of the mass involved.
This hard won experience also indicates the better the running of the whole rake, then the less chance of any mishaps.
We simply wish to reduce the variables to the minimum. Also you have to consider the sheer distance our loco's will cover during a show.
Small increments can be significant...
Richard has used some inside bearings on some other stock he is working on at the moment - yet only again, as a last resort.
One takes ones choice Jim and we, at the moment, have taken ours. ;)
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby Richard Oldfield » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:40 am

Hi,

There is another issue with rolling resistance which makes it undesirable, especially for unfitted and partially fitted trains. This is the behaviour of wagons at low speeds such as shunting, slowing down for a signal or starting a train from stationary. There is nothing nicer with a heavy freight train starting off from a signal check than to watch the locomotive evenly pick up wagon by wagon as the slack from the couplings is removed. If you have wagons with higher than average rolling resistance then they require more force to set them moving and this can result in jerking movement which is jarring to the eye.

When braking for a halt the locomotive will also 'gather up' the wagons, causing them to be buffer-to-buffer with couplings slack. If you have a brake van with rolling resistance this will act against this process.

Obviously these distinctive features behave differently if the train is on a marked gradient but Mostyn (prototype and model) is pretty flat.

I cannot immediately think of any reason why a modeller would use a compensation or springing system which introduces extra rolling resistance unless it was the only practical application for a given vehicle.

Cheers,

Richard
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby Jim S-W » Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:12 pm

Richard Oldfield wrote:Hi,

I cannot immediately think of any reason why a modeller would use a compensation or springing system which introduces extra rolling resistance unless it was the only practical application for a given vehicle.

Cheers,

Richard


Absolutely Richard.

I guess it's down to your definition of practical. It's practical to not compensate or spring a brake van at all as it does work. From my point of view it's not practical to use a compensation system that doesnt work very well (personally I don't think any rocking compensation looks right and it would always be my last choice of the three available options) or is it practical for me to faff about fitting springing to a wagon that it doesn't easily fit for no visual benefit. That's just my opinion, you guys have different ones that work for you and I am not going to say they are wrong but our priorities are different.

After all I am building something more than twice the size of mostyn and stocking it pretty much on my own (with potentially space for nearly 800 coaches) , I don't have a team so it's only natural that my priorities are different. If I can get something running quickly then that's more time for building a model of a fairly large chunk of the city or the roughly 7+ scale miles of OLE I need to build from scratch. I admire the level you take your stuff to but it's not an option for me.

Cheers

Jim
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby Richard Oldfield » Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:33 pm

Hi Jim,

Great posting :D

What to us might seem a compromise (or not workable given our 1200mm minimum radius)is to you, given the scale of the challenge you have undertaken, an imperative which you cannot ignore. You have to find the quicker solutions in order to maintain the feasibility of your total project. That's quite a delicate balance which you'll be striving to maintain over New Street's lifetime.

Good thought-provoking stuff.

Cheers,

Richard
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby iak » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:22 am

http://scalerail.phpbbhosts.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=121&t=1260&p=11802#p11795

For those interested, Richard is illustrating the "Pendleton" springing method here.
It is probable that this will be the way the BR Brake Vans will be attacked ;)
Stay tuned butchery fans.......
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby Richard Oldfield » Sat Sep 27, 2014 10:11 pm

Hi,

The project to build a decent-sized batch of 20T BR standard brake vans based on the modern Hornby offering has now been started in earnest.

We have solved the springing problem with some butchery. If anyone would like to see the method then please fire ahead and I'll post up some images/explanation.

Cheers,
Richard
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby Cock Sparra » Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:38 am

Richard Oldfield wrote:Hi,

The project to build a decent-sized batch of 20T BR standard brake vans based on the modern Hornby offering has now been started in earnest.

We have solved the springing problem with some butchery. If anyone would like to see the method then please fire ahead and I'll post up some images/explanation.

Cheers,
Richard



Yes please Richard.
Cheers Phil

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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby iak » Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:57 am

Beware, its pretty vicious... :o
Perfection is impossible.
But I may choose to serve perfection....
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby Richard Oldfield » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:58 am

Hi Phil,

Cock Sparra wrote:
Richard Oldfield wrote:
We have solved the springing problem with some butchery. If anyone would like to see the method then please fire ahead and I'll post up some images/explanation.




Yes please Richard.


I have written this up for an article in the next issue of our group's Journal (see Messroom) which is at the printer. Let me have a word with someone who is more tachno-savvy than me about how to pass this info to you.

Cheers,
Richard
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby Cock Sparra » Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:50 am

Richard Oldfield wrote:Hi Phil,

Cock Sparra wrote:
Richard Oldfield wrote:
We have solved the springing problem with some butchery. If anyone would like to see the method then please fire ahead and I'll post up some images/explanation.




Yes please Richard.


I have written this up for an article in the next issue of our group's Journal (see Messroom) which is at the printer. Let me have a word with someone who is more tachno-savvy than me about how to pass this info to you.

Cheers,




Richard



Thanks very much Richard.
Cheers Phil

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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby stuartfwlr » Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:59 am

Definitely like to see the groups take on building these vans. I have a slight fascination with brake vans :drool !
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby iak » Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:49 am

Stay tuned sir.... ;)
Perfection is impossible.
But I may choose to serve perfection....
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