BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby Richard Oldfield » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:16 am

Hi,

We've now had a quick opportunity to give the recent Hornby BR standard brake van the once over.

It seems a speedier route to a decent model than our previous Airfix/Dapol efforts detailed on Fred.

It also seems markedly superior to the Bachmann version in terms of finesse of detail.

With a forthcoming brake van build for Mostyn I thought it worthwhile opening a new topic to hear the opinions/thoughts/suggestions of other followers of Fred.

One worthwhile tip that we have been given is to note that the bauxite version comes in two axlebox variants (with the same Hornby code on each).

Cheers,

Richard
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby iak » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:27 am

Ahhhhha :lol:
Right then...
We have a few options with regards to the issue of the running gear on these beasties...

1 - Replace the underframe with the Dave Bradwell etch. Originally designed for the auld Dapol/Airfix kit and usable with both the Bachmann and new Hornby Brake vans. Springing is integral to the design, as well as all the wee variations on the solebars and the way the footboards are mounted. One issue here - COSt!

2 - Devise a way the spring the Hornby underframe. Chris Pendleton devised a way of springing 21T mineral hoppers some time back and this maybe a way forward using a similar workflow. The solebars and such would need careful study mind - we would need to look very carefully at piccies and pick our prototypes! No doubt some extra detailing will be needed but hey!

3 - The philistine method!! And I think we can discount that in P4 :axe:

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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby Philip Sutton » Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:25 pm

Donor material is now in residence... A round dozen!

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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby Richard Oldfield » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:39 pm

iak wrote:1 - Replace the underframe with the Dave Bradwell etch. Originally designed for the auld Dapol/Airfix kit and usable with both the Bachmann and new Hornby Brake vans. Springing is integral to the design, as well as all the wee variations on the solebars and the way the footboards are mounted. One issue here - COSt!


Hi Iain,

I've just had a look at the Dave Bradwell etch price which is £18. Ouch!!

Cheers,

Richard
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby iak » Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:09 am

Exactly... :shock:
Now where as the small layout building maybe 3 brake vans can take that, we are looking at potentially 10 or more here!
Some dissection and cogitation required methinks?
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby Clive » Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:39 pm

iak wrote:Exactly... :shock:
Now where as the small layout building maybe 3 brake vans can take that, we are looking at potentially 10 or more here!
Some dissection and cogitation required methinks?


Convert Mostyn to 00 so that the brakes do not need new chassis :D

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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby iak » Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:49 pm

Awa an bail yer heid... :lol:
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby Philip Sutton » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:55 pm

Hi Chaps,
A few images to put some meat on the discussion about the Hornby BR standard brake van. First of all, the mystery of the single Hornby product code covering brake vans with the same number but with different axleboxes. Note the wagon on the left with roller bearings and on the right with plate-fronted axleboxes...

IMG_0131sm.jpg


A view from above. There's plenty of scope for detailing differences especially with rainstrips. We think the vents look slightly squashed in to the roof.

IMG_0132sm.jpg


Side elevation: This particular model seems to have the ducket fitted on the skew.

IMG_0125sm.jpg


The air-piped version in Railfreight red/grey livery dates from the mid-1980s and thus is too late for Mostyn as shown.

IMG_0129sm.jpg


The models are 'straight out of the box' apart from the removal of the tension lock coupling. There are 13 vehicles allocated Barrowmore Works attention... You can never have too many brake vans!
Look out for more engine and brake van moves in the future.

Cheers Philip
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby MartinWales » Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:51 am

I was a bit sceptical about the duplication of models until I saw them for sale at Blackburn show-but despite the higher cost I think there is still an advance in the base RTR product, before any detailing/personalizing work required
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby Butoxeter » Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:45 pm

I bought one recently - the bauxite roller bearing variety (only because that's all the local model shop had and I wasn't in the mood to wait!). I'd be interested to see how anyone achieves springing without the expense of the Bradwell chassis. I know my friend John Farmer sprung a Hornby Shark a year or so ago, but that involved completely replacing the 'W' irons with Bill Bedford ones, and the associated chassis work that went with that.
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby Richard Oldfield » Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:17 pm

Hi Tim,
Butoxeter wrote:I'd be interested to see how anyone achieves springing without the expense of the Bradwell chassis.


We have not yet given the model anything other than a cursory glance as regards springing but, apart from the Bill Bedford route we are also thinking about:-

- possibly producing our own springing unit (we seem to be doing more and more of our own etched brass components these days)
- examining whether the Chris Pendlenton individual springing idea could be adapted (as he showed in MRJ on his coal hoppers)

Butoxeter wrote: I know my friend John Farmer sprung a Hornby Shark a year or so ago, but that involved completely replacing the 'W' irons with Bill Bedford ones, and the associated chassis work that went with that.


I take my hat off to your friend, John. I'm afraid that, for a short wheelbase wagon like the Shark, it would not normally be either sprung or compensated if it crossed my workbench. However, we do have a couple of Hornby Sharks somewhere - could you prevail upon John to share an image or two of his work?

Cheers,

Richard
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby iak » Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:44 pm

Well some earnest pondering beckons...
Save to say its going to make a change frae 12t vans and medfits... :lol:
Save to say that using an inside bearing, sprung solution would not be a first choice - we want them to run!
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby Richard Oldfield » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:57 am

Hi Iain,

iak wrote:Save to say that using an inside bearing, sprung solution would not be a first choice - we want them to run!


Yes, I agree with you but.............
Philip and I need to make a confession.
A couple of wagons in our current air-braked van build do have inside bearing springing units fitted (Masokits).
This is because the prototype suspension fitted does not have a w-iron as such and exposes much of the wheel surface.
Clearly the running quality of the model is inferior to that on the other air-braked vans which have outside bearing springing units but we could not see any other solution because:-

1. the wheelbase is so long that you have to do something.
2. The only other possibility - internal bearing compensation - is markedly inferior to internal bearing springing.

I'm hoping that a combination of extensive 'running in' plus lubricant (? graphite powder) will minimise the rolling resistance.

See you at the club on Wednesday.

Cheers,

Richard
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby Waveydavey » Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:23 pm

I like the look of these brake vans and it's nice to see the choice of axleboxes is different from the Bachmann ones. Worth buying a couple for that alone and I'm also liking the external retro fit vac and air pipes too. I've not found there to be a need to spring my Bachy vans for the relatively short runs on Longcarse West so hopefully these will be the same.

Cheers

David
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby iak » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:22 pm

Unsprung on the Beastie is a non starter for us David.
We have a deal of noodling ahead......... ;)
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby Jim S-W » Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:58 pm

Hi Iain

Have you actually tested a rigid one? The reason I ask is we have had unsprung Bachmann ones running on out test tracks with perfect reliability and our test tracks are about as far as you can get from Mostyns nice flat track. I would be amazed if a rigid one gave you any problems.

Why is it a non starter? Theres absolutely no reason why it should be.

Cheers

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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby Richard Oldfield » Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:09 pm

Jim S-W wrote:
Why is it a non starter? Theres absolutely no reason why it should be.



Hi Jim,

We start off from a position where no-one in their right mind would go to the time and trouble of fitting springing/compensation units unless they were proven to be necessary. Our experience is that for wheelbases up to 10ft 6in you can get acceptable running without compensation or springing. At progressively higher wheelbases the advantages of compensation/springing grow significantly. The BR standard brake van has a 16ft wheelbase and, from our experience, compensation/springing is mandatory if you wish to achieve long term running reliability irrespective of pulling/propelling, train length, speed and manoeuvre.

Our experience with rigid wagons above 10ft 6 in wheelbase extends to a rake of HAAs in use on Mostyn in the early days - they ran without derailing provided they were on a gentler radius fiddle yard road and were not propelled. They were also heavy, much heavier than our desired weight. We also have a rigid 12ft Grampus which does not derail but whose smoothness of running is clearly inferior to its brothers and sisters. I certainly would not want it as the first wagon in a long train being propelled into sidings. We have also tried the 'just put P4 wheels into a Bachmann Mark 1 coach bogie' trick - it works after a fashion but it's no way to run a railway.

Of course you can mask the shortcomings of rigid wheelbases by excessive weighting and/or additional 'slop' between pinpoints and bearings (which is really nothing but a crude form of compensation) but we would rather have the insurance of what some might consider a belt and braces approach but which we feel is an essential part of making a smooth-running maintenance-free reliable wagon.

I can only re-iterate Iain's point (in more detail perhaps!) that a reliable smooth-running 16ft rigid wheelbase wagon to Mostyn standards is a complete non-starter.

Cheers,

Richard
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby Jim S-W » Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:59 pm

You know what works for you Richard

You probably have more wagons in one train than I need for the whole layout and the ones that I do need wont be shunted - just trundle along. I wonder if its as simple as a like for like comparisson though as a HAA zipping along at a scale 60mph is a different beast to a brake van trundling along at 15 (would it have been that speed then for an unfitted freight?)

I am happy running rigid 16ft wagons but then they are my short wheelbase!

Don't make your wagons too smooth though! :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMk1tgZfXeA

Cheers

Jim
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby Richard Oldfield » Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:28 pm

Hi Jim,

Jim S-W wrote:You know what works for you Richard


I hope so - or I'm going to be one unhappy bunny if I discover, after 10 years and a couple of hundred wagons, that I've missed something...... :) :) :)

Jim S-W wrote:You probably have more wagons in one train than I need for the whole layout and the ones that I do need wont be shunted - just trundle along. I wonder if its as simple as a like for like comparisson though as a HAA zipping along at a scale 60mph is a different beast to a brake van trundling along at 15 (would it have been that speed then for an unfitted freight?)


unfitted freight = 25mph max. in 1977.

I suppose we're really trying to cover all the bases with the Mostyn approach, as each new batch of wagons enters service the rakes are re-jigged and re-formed, so we want to ensure that everything can take our sharpest, most complex trackwork and we do not have to worry too much about position in individual rakes or whether the wagon is going to be propelled into the exchange sidings.

It's good to see you have at least got some freight which will pass through New Street !

Cheers,

Richard
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby Jim S-W » Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:42 pm

I doubt you've missed anything Richard. You might have overdone it, but that will never show up!

There was some freight booked through BNS, Freightliners, Steel, empty Cartics. Add in a few diverted speedlinks and some engineers stuff plus a 'problem' on the lifford curves and A peak with clay tigers would have to go through. Mmmmmmm

Cheers

Jim
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby Richard Oldfield » Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:06 am

Hi Jim,

Jim S-W wrote:There was some freight booked through BNS, Freightliners, Steel, empty Cartics. Add in a few diverted speedlinks and some engineers stuff plus a 'problem' on the lifford curves and A peak with clay tigers would have to go through. Mmmmmmm


This is the road to damnation. :D :D :D

I like it.

Cheers,

Richard
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby iak » Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:21 am

:devil: :axe: :devil:

Cue Vincent Price laughter.................. :D
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby iak » Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:06 pm

Oh the joys of proper train-set-ery!! :lol:
Some more musing on springing these beasties has led a choice being needed.
After a good look at was is available out there and having mentioned a few things earlier in this thread...

1. Inside bearings or outside bearings? Insides will mean no drilling out the back of the w-irons whereas outsides probably will.

2. Do we try the Masokits inside ones or fettle some sprung w-irons for use as outside bearings - BB pedestal w-irons??

3. Or do we adapt the Pendleton method and create our own sprung bearings which sit in the Hornby w-irons?

Whatever we try, it looks like some milling may be in order to get ride heights sorted properly.
An exploratory dissection is pending :axe:
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby chrisf » Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:40 am

I've been thinking about method 3 in the context of a Hornby Trout, which has a 14 ft wb and therefore a candidate for springing.

Knowing how good your reference library is [creep, creep], can any of you knowledgeable gentry please remind me where Chris Pendlenton wrote up the springing method which you mention? I have quite a good index to MRJ and an index of useful wagon articles derived from it but searching both indices has failed to reveal the article, if article there be.

Thanks in anticipation

Chris
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Re: BR 20T Standard Brake Van - Hornby version

Postby iak » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:06 am

Hallo Chris
Issue 173 frae 2007 is the one you want... http://www.modelrailwayjournal.com/issue.php?s=173
Richard Oldfield has built some 21t Hoppers using this method for Mostyn so he has some practical experience of the pitfalls of this method.
Strangely we have some Trout for the fettle as well so stay tuned............. 8-)
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